Beef, Smears, C4O and Other Dramz!

by canadian gal, Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:13:36 PM EST

(cross posted at Clintonistas for Obama)

About 2 months ago, give or take - I was approached by psychodrew and atdleft and asked if I wanted to join as a contributor for the blog Clintonistas for Obama.

I went to the site and saw the list of people that were involved.  Some of the names I didnt recognize, but others not only did I know - but were some of my favourite people at MyDD.  I didn't hesitate in accepting.  

Around the same time that I was working on a diary that was not particularly flattering to Obama.  I didn't know what to do - should I cross post it or not?  Since now it was not just little old canadian gal speaking - I was afraid that the C4O's may not want to be associated with it.  So I emailed psychodrew and atdleft asking what I should do.  They were split - on one hand we agreed that the C4O are explicitly not cheerleaders but on the other - this would be my first post - would this be a good introduction?  

In the end - they both encouraged me to cross post - I did.  But the fact that I considered censoring myself due to the political climate should be bothersome to those that share progressive values.  For the record C4O do not ask for consensus before posting - although I did this particular time.

Why am I sharing this, or better yet why should you care?

Well currently one of the C4O is being attacked for 'smearing' Obama.  We are not a monolithic voice.  Just like none of you are.  And speaking only for myself is I COULDN'T GIVE A DAMN WHETHER A PRAYER WAS LEAKED OR NOT. And I might add that not only am I Jewish but have been to the Wall.

But that's not the point of this diary really - rather that this hysteria of criticism of Obama - whether accurate, warranted or not needs to stop.  YOU ARE NOT A PURVEYOR OF DISCUSSION THAT IS ALLOWED.  Now that isn't to say that there are some blatant troll diaries around like this or this, but I think the disctinction is pretty clear to intellectually honest people.

We, as bloggers are not water carriers for a particular candidate but rather united in are desire to see liberal (or Democratic) values and agenda in governance (at least most of us are).  

I read a piece at Talk Left that summed this problem up rather nicely:

Consider how some on the Left react to any criticism of Barack Obama. Instead of thinking about the ramifications for the policies they claim to support (or oppose), their kneejerk reaction is to defend Obama at all costs and to lash out at anyone who criticizes Obama.

Do they care about the effect on the actual policies? Not so much. By attempting to create a political landscape where Obama can do no wrong - they lose the war on issues.

So really this has got to stop.  People have a right to gripe and complain about Obama and anyone else, you want to debate them - go for it.  That's why its called Democracy!  




Tags: c4o, smears, obama, mydd (all tags)

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viva la democracy! (2.00 / 15)


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:14:13 PM EST

Re: viva la democracy! (2.00 / 9)

Well currently one of the C4O is being attacked for 'smearing' Obama.  We are not a monolithic voice.  Just like none of you are.  And speaking only for myself is I COULDN'T GIVE A DAMN WHETHER A PRAYER WAS LEAKED OR NOT.

AMEN! I am not you, I am not linfar, psychodrew, atd, zcflint, or any other member of C4O. I do not speak for them, nor they for me. I am not the voice of C4O, just a lowly member. I do not have to rec every diary my co-bloggers write, nor do they have to rec mine. I don't have to agree with them, and I am not required to "justify" or explain their behavior. I was a lone diarist before I was a C4O, and my opinions and beliefs are just as free of peer influence as ever they were.

No single diarist sums up the entire group. People should stop thinking of us as if we're one. I am myself first and foremost. All else is secondary.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:22:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You shouldn't have to be held (2.00 / 3)

accountable for anyone else.

At the same time, there are people (NOT YOU) who are defending the most vile Swiftboating I've seen at this site in a long time.

Swiftboating the Democratic nominee is not acceptable, and it will never be acceptable.  


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:25:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: viva la democracy! (2.00 / 2)

Of course you're not the Borg.  Of course you're individuals.  I'm barely aware of who's in C4O and who isn't.  I honestly don't really care.  I read what each of you writes and evaluate it (inasmuch as I do) on the merits.

Have you actually read what Linfar said?  She actually accused Barack Obama of stealing other people's prayers from the wall...


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:25:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, actually I haven't. (2.00 / 4)

But Kysen summed much of it up nicely, and I know I disagree with her; thus, I feel no need to read it. I will not defend her theory.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:28:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, actually I haven't. (none / 0)

sricki, I say this as respectfully as I can:

You have no business involving yourself.  You don't understand why we've had over a thousand comments spread over five or six diaries.

Linfar has ignored every attempt to show that she was incorrect.  She has taunted us and shown a complete disregard for facts or reality.  There is a reason why we all flipped out, and it has nothing to do with C4O or Hillary Clinton.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

actually reaper... (2.00 / 4)

if you read through the comments c4o did become quite a topic - but that's neither here nor there - the point is you posted a diary attacking linfar personally (and so did the subsequent comments) rather than addressing the content.

your diary and most of its comments with due respect - is a crapfest.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:33:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A different kind of opinion... (2.00 / 3)

the point is you posted a diary attacking linfar personally (and so did the subsequent comments) rather than addressing the content.

Some content does not deserve to be addressed.  Oh, yes, sure, maybe in an Oxford debate.  But this is not Oxford, and this is not debate.  It's a fucking pie-fight, pretending to be political debate.

I didn't read the diary by Linfar in question, only the characterizations of it, but I read enough diaries by Linfar this year to know what they are like.  I usually don't read them, nor do I read certain other posters.  

After Hillary conceded, I was one of the people that voted for the online petition diary to give banned or privilege-reduced diariests from the primary season a full amnesty.  I thought it was going to be over and we would get on with life.  But, no we haven't.  It's still a pissing contest.   Some people are eager to leap upon any flimsy excuse to either attack Obama or some media opponent of Hillary just to keep the bullshit going.  It's a psychopathology, not a political philosophy.

And when we aren't engaging in pie-fights, we are engaging in these meta-pie-fights, like this diary, and a number of others like it, many of which I just skip because I know the drill.  The pie fights are portrayed as standing up for freedom of thought and expression and protecting America from messianic Obama followers who can't stand the truth, etc., etc.

The fact is, many of the valid criticisms of Obama would be good fodder for discussion if they weren't coming from reflexive post-Hillary fanatics.  It taints the discussion.  For instance, those of us that may have wanted to criticize Obama over something like FISA and give him a new asshole are held in check not out of concern for Obama, but because we don't want to be baited into becoming part of somebody else's psychodrama.


by Dumbo on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 05:55:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

hhmm... (none / 0)

so now the "reflexive post-Hillary fanatics' should be omitted from the discussion?  listen i dont defend linfar's words - in fact i dont them - but your post is kind of dumb.

in fact - by your logic people who voted for clinton in the primary should now love the media figures who bashed her in primary because they liked obama?

v. strange indeed.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 06:17:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

My answer: (2.00 / 2)

so now the "reflexive post-Hillary fanatics' should be omitted from the discussion?

My answer: Yes, they should be omitted.  Not former Hillary supporters.  Just those people that are still stuck in March 2008.  They have their rights to their opinions.  They just don't need to post them here.  We can't have an adult discussion about the race for the presidency if some of the participants are still stuck in the primaries.

I, too, am bitter about some things that happened during the primary.  It's just that the list of things that bug me are different than the list of things that may bug you.  And I try (not always successfully) to keep them to myself, for now, because we have to move on.  You're mad at Keith Olbermann, for instance.  I have people I am just as mad at, and I believe I have good reason to be.  I just won't list them because then you may feel an obligation to stick up for them, and I'll be arguing about how badly so and so behaved during the primary season.  And the cycle continues.

Now, you and I and everybody on C4O may have some things that we jointly feel are wrong about Obama or his actions.  But we can't hold an open, equal discussion about it together if there is no trust about your motives.  Before you say, oh, but that's unfair, I have a right to my anti-Obama opinions, let me say, you do, but as long as you continue to wage your own post-Hillary turf war, you'd be better off expressing those opinions to somebody who cares.  Otherwise, you're just a pest.

I argue with conservatives on other forums all the time.  (For instance, HERE, where I hang out as Doc Doofus.)  I have no problem with that.  I kind of enjoy it.  But there is an honesty to that.  I know where they're coming from and they know where I do.  The battle lines are clear.  But here, we have people that want to continue old battles through other guises.

After November, if you want to spend months revisiting everything that happened during the primaries, be my guest.  I'd love to do it with you, if just for the nostalgia.  For one thing, the rest of us would be free to swing back in a substantive way.  But as it is, we can't do it without satisfying the need for attention of the worst trolls on the site.


by Dumbo on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 09:02:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My answer: (2.00 / 5)

We can't have an adult discussion about the race for the presidency if some of the participants are still stuck in the primaries.

The point should be made that there are supporters from BOTH Clinton's and Obama's camps that are still stuck in the fog of the Primary War. I likened those like them, in another comment, to the Japanese on the small islands who thought the battle still rage...long after the War had ended.


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 09:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No, actually I haven't. (2.00 / 7)

Eh?
Actually, sricki has every right to make the point that, though she C4O, she is NOT linfar....and neither is any other C4O other than linfar herself.

She states she disagrees with linfar on this issue.

She has not 'involved' herself...in fact, quite the opposite...she has made it clear that she opts not to be involved in it.

What is unfortunate (and ya know I love ya CG) is that this diary has focused on a very small aspect of the issue. VERY few persons involved think that C4O has anything to do with this. And, the ones who think that they are involved....don't get much traction round these parts in the first place.

Sadly, I only see this diary only being the next in line for the continuation of this debacle.


by Kysen on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:38:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

alas i fear you're right. (2.00 / 5)

and i may delete it soon if it doesn't stop.  honestly yesterday i almost quit kysen - i seriously have had enough of this ickyness.  then i read z's diaries and it put some of this into context.  but again today more crap.

let me be clear i am not defending lin's diary or its content rather her right to post it and not get attacked PERSONALLY for doing so.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Okay, she gets the Engels treatment (none / 0)

then.

I guess you can have us treat her with laughing contempt or outrage.  But, respect?  Respect is earned, and being a Swiftboater means not getting respect around here.


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: alas i fear you're right. (2.00 / 2)

I'm sure you've seen it by now, but it's ALL been debunked. The writer retracted his story, there have been no other reports, no proof. The student involved has confessed to the act and there is video of him with friends actually going to the wall and taking not just one, but several prayers from the wall.


If you're being chased by an angry bull and then you notice you're also being chased by a swarm of bees, it doesn't really change things. Just keep on running.
by vcalzone on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:10:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If you lie... (none / 0)

... then you are a liar.  That diary was lies, therefore...


by mikeinsf on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:09:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: alas i fear you're right. (2.00 / 4)

rather her right to post it and not get attacked PERSONALLY for doing so.

Hey CG, I don't think this is about lin's 'right' to post a diary.  And I'm never a fan of personal attacks.

But Lin wasn't getting flamed because she criticized Obama, or spread an unflattering meme, or dissented, or courageously raised her voice against a monolithic and prevailing voice.  It was because of her methods, her tactics, which reek of intellectual dishonesty and bad faith.  It's not about who she once supported or who she now criticizes or anything like that.

But while she surely has the 'right' to post whatever diary she pleases, she doesn't have the right not to have her tactics called out, her assumptions and sources questioned, and her reputation as an unethical mudslinger (remember He Lied About Auschwitz?) brought up.  And if, alegre-and-TXDarlin'-style, she makes outrageous accusations without bothering to stick around and answer skeptical questions, I'm not sure how much respect she deserves.  My opinion of course.

Also--please don't leave MyDD.  Look how popular your diaries are!  MyDD needs strong C40 voices.  As for the haters, you know . . . brush that dirt off your shoulders.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 11:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You can't really say that respectfully. (2.00 / 4)

I am involving myself only to the extent that I'm defending the group and the people in it. I read the comment thread in your diary, and C4O was mentioned. Someone (who I respect very much) asked me earlier for C4O's position on this. I'm just pointing out that we have no unified position.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:01:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You can't really say that respectfully. (2.00 / 5)

I apologize, sincerely.  I overstated that in haste, and there's no excusing it.

My concern was that you were wading into this without understanding why so many of us went ballistic.  We had a reason.

But for my lack of manners I am sorry.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:03:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's okay. (2.00 / 4)

I know what you meant, and I've always respected your posts. And everyone had a right to be angry. I just think some of that anger was misplaced, and people were coming to me and other C4Os as if we should explain or justify linfar's behavior/reasoning. It's that I object to.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's okay. (1.88 / 9)

I was the one who asked and it seems by this diary that my question was taken the wrong way. The only reason I asked what C4O thought about linfar's diary is because the group was taking heat for the crap she was peddling. I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my question.

I don't get this diary (even though cg is my favorite MyDD member).

Linfar did not criticize the nominee. Some get overzealous and call everything a troll diary.  I get that. Many purity trolls and Bots get crazy over anything. I also get the point cg is making about holding the candidates feet to the fire.  But it's not fair to lump that crap Linfar tried to pull with normal criticism.

I think what has almost everybody in this blog up in arms (which it seems some have missed) is that not only did she mock ReaperBot and others for proving them wrong.  But she never retracted and went over to Taylor Marsh to keep pushing something she knows has been debunked.That was the last straw for me. It was blogosphere swiftboating if I've ever seen it.

She was pushing crap she knew what not legit. Why?

You can think she's really down with C4O if you'd like but it's pretty clear to most of us she is just using your good name to smear the nominee.

I asked about C4O's stance on the issue because I thought she was doing alot of harm to your brand. I wanted the MyDD community to see you  are NOT a monolithic group.

What I don't understand is how others can keep on defending what Lin did and continues to do. Why take the heat for a big heap of stinking shit?

What if it were Hillary who was being criticized and after the accuser was shown that sources used are be less than credible , said accuser upped the ante and double downed on the smear?

Would that be honest criticism?  Or would it be FAIL?

FAIL.

I write like crap and even more when I'm tired. Sorry for any typos or incoherent sentences. I hope the main point I was trying to make is clear though.

Linfar is not being "attacked". Linfar has an agenda and most of the MyDD community feels like fools for having believed for a second her motives were sincere. She is being called out and instead of an apology or retraction she says "the Obama campaign stole other people prayers from the wall".

Doesn't look like honest critique to me.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:53:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's okay. (1.75 / 4)

Rec'd of course. ; )


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:05:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I wasn't blaming you. (1.83 / 6)

I think it's natural that people should wonder how the rest of the C4Os viewed linfar's posts. I was not offended when you asked. C4O was brought up in Reapers thread as well, if I understand correctly. You have never been anything but respectful spaceman, and you're one of my faves. Don't get me wrong, alluding to our exchange wasn't meant as an attack on you. Promise. ;)

I disagree strongly with what linfar said/did. I respect her for other reasons. I will defend her as a person, but I will not defend her theory. She is sincere in that she will vote for Obama. I think she'll also do all those things we normally do -- make calls, donate, etc. She doesn't like Obama. I don't think she should have made the argument she made because it is counterproductive. It will not help us elect him. But I trust that she is for Obama over McCain. She would crawl over broken glass to vote for the man she has made these accusations against. Don't feel like a fool. None of us are being used.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:10:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the words sricki! (1.66 / 3)

I've always spoken highly of C4O. Heck, my favorite MyDD crew are for the most part Clinton supporters. I just feel she took it a bit to far. I don't think she cares but I lost all respect. As Geekesque said in an earlier comment, she is getting teh engles treatment. It's impossible I ever take anything she says seriously again.

(I still wuv you holding on sweetie!)


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:18:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

honestly. (1.75 / 4)

i care what you think spacey - as sricki said - you are one of my faves.  and i think what's getting lost in the noise is not that the c4o agree with linfar but rather her right to speak without being attacked personally.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:26:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you CG! ::blush:: (1.75 / 4)

Yeah. I get that too. I just felt so let down by Linfar.  She is such a talented writer and I really enjoyed reading her work. Insulting her personally is not the way to go but Linfar is a primary war veteran. She got as much heat as anybody (deserved and not) and she knew as soon as she dropped that diary what was going to happen. She also went into another diary and actually asked for an apology. Not an apology for being attacked but an apology because her story was proven right.  After her claims were easiy debunked she went to another site and dug a deeper hole. Linfar knew what she was doing and she did it anyways. I don't respect Linfar the diarist. The MyDD user. I'm sure that IRL Lin is a great person and I'm sure I'd like her alot. But we deal with each other in the blogosphere so blog rules are what apply. She is getting the engels treatment from now on from me.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:37:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

WTF! I leave you guys alone... (1.83 / 6)

...for 24 hours...and the whole place goes to shit! (sarcasm/snark)

My two cents...

...I learned somewhat of a lesson by almost "crossing the line" and becoming a vociferous supporter of Alegre's...but, in the end when it counted, I did not do that.

I'm just not the "joiner"/"follower" type.

I never follow folks blindly. Learned that a long, long time ago. Maybe it's an "age thing." I don't know.

What I've learned since is that some labels/generalizations/categorizations are applicable:

1.) Like minded folks. There are certain people I almost always agree with around here, to the point where I know that I don't even have to read every word in their diaries--but I still do read every word just in case.

I tend to rec and mojo these folks the most; and I maintain friendships with them here.

2.) Diametric opposites. There are other folks around here with whom I've never agreed on a damn thing.

I'll still read some of their crap just to remind myself of that fact.

3.) Trolls, assholes, immature, people with low emotional intelligence, the "habitual irrationals," and the folks just habitually off their meds. There are many folks here that just like to disrupt dialogue and/or act in an argumentative or childish fashion all the time.

I tend to either ignore, flame, t.r./h.r. or yell at them, in general;

4.) The inconsistents and the misunderstoods. These are vehement but rational supporters of this or that issue or this or that "wing" of the party; some have real chips on their shoulders (depending upon what type of mood they're in on any given day/night, the chip's either on their shoulder, or they've left it at home).

Sometimes I have great dialogue with them; sometimes not so much; sometimes I know better and just avoid them on any given night.

5.) Those on an acknowledged mission. They're here for a reason, but they're open/transparent about it, and it doesn't have to be negative or positive (although sometimes it's obviously one or the other), but they're sane folks.

Depending upon why they're here, I may or may not engage in discourse with them, and/or read their stuff.

6.) Those on a mission, usually with a hidden or semi-obscured/obfuscated agenda. These are the sockpuppets, the truly dangerous trolls, the manipulators, the deceivers, the users, those lying by omission, covert professionals, or the ones being covertly compensated for their time here (unbeknownst to us), etc., etc.

I read their stuff very cautiously (when I take the time to do so). I generally don't engage in much discourse with them; more than likely I try to avoid them.

Folks like you, CG, Sricki, et al...I would all consider to be in the first group.

I don't feel that way about Lin. But, that's probably because I haven't engaged in much discourse with her.


by bobswern on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:42:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: WTF! I leave you guys alone... (1.75 / 4)

About time you got here bob!

Epic flamewars!

EPIC!

This comment of yours is gold. You really broke it down splendidly. I feel exactly the same way.

1.) Like minded folks. There are certain people I almost always agree with around here, to the point where I know that I don't even have to read every word in their diaries--but I still do read every word just in case.

I tend to rec and mojo these folks the most; and I maintain friendships with them here.

It's the reason I come here.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:49:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, I just read through this whole... (1.80 / 5)

...diary and comments section...what a clusterfuck!

The problem is that many folks do make extremely rational comments--even some folks that I'd never think would do that were blowing me away.

Reaper, who's pretty evenhanded (at times) was very interesting.

Geek even blew me away with his words...and I almost always think he's over the top. Tonight, he impressed the hell out of me...for about 20-30 comments...and then he eventually went overboard way downthread. He cops an attitude like it's his mission to enforce his definition of what's right and wrong for the entire community; basically undermined what I thought was some pretty brilliant commentary up until that point, too. You cold say "he went from the sublime to the sanctimonious," all in one set of diary comments.

I totally understand where CG's coming from; Sricki, too.

Linfar and I just haven't been the closest of bloggers. Sure, we've exchanged comments and rec'd some of the other's work (occasionally). And, obviously we supported the same candidate.

But, if Lin wrote some of the things others say that she wrote, then it's pretty hard to defend her in this instance. Sounds like she might owe some folks an apology. Sounds like others might owe her an apology (or two), too.

And, yeah, this guilt-by-association thing sucks. I totally get that one. Believe me!

Also sounds like there are two or three bloggers on MyDD that need to be 'taken out back to the shed and horsewhipped,' for making some nasty generalizations about C40 folks, too!

Hmmmm....not all black and white here...lots of grey. Kind of like everything else in life.


by bobswern on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, I just read through this whole... (1.00 / 1)

Howdy Bob!  I was wondering when you'd turn up.

I'd like to think I've been even-handed throughout this (excepting that one remark to sricki for which I apologized).  Remember, I mojo'ed Linfar several times, uprating HR's so she could post and explain herself.  She then proceeded to taunt us and repeatedly lie and ignore facts.

Do you think I misbehaved or acted in bad faith?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

All in all, Reap.... (1.00 / 1)

...like I said, I found your comments here both interesting and also allowed me to see some personal depth...the type of thing you don't get to see given the fact that we all tend to blog--or we should be trying to in any event--about issues, etc.

I really don't like putting out judgemental stuff...who the f**k am I to judge, right? But, I guess we're all hypocrites about that sort of thing, aren't we?

That being said, you're asking for my opinion, so here it is: You apologized; you blogged in an incredibly sane and level-headed manner...way above and beyond the call...and you apologized for your one comment.

We all go over the top here. And, as long as that's not an everyday occurrence, and we're cognizant of our missteps (and we apologize for them), what the hell!

So, yeah, my respect for your commentary has increased immensely as a result of this episode. But, that's just me...

So, I'm in general agreement, of course! Let's all get back to the real matters at hand, and shift the focus to the campaign and the issues...keeping the personal attacks to a minimum.


by bobswern on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:06:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: viva la democracy! (2.00 / 3)

Problem is sricki, because there is a group loyalty movement, I'm suddenly getting trolled by psychodrew, and hiderated by zcflint - first time that has ever happened on MYDD - even in the worst of the flame wars.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:26:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My HR was... (2.00 / 2)

in response to childish name calling and playground bully tactics against one of the most respected and well spoken commenters here against a purity troll like yourself.

You can call it "group loyalty", I'll call it "grow up".


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:28:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My HR was... (2.00 / 4)

Childish name calling?

I'm afraid your blinders are on. I was called a drama queen, told I was at grade school, and then merely remarked this was an ad hominem

Reread that thread zcflint. I vehemently think that attacking the democratic nominee when head to head with McCain is wrong and dangerous.

Disagree all you want. But don't hiderate me. And hiderate ONE SIDE of a series of exchanges just through group think.

I've never been hiderated here before and have made many comments in this vein.

Psychodrew has to earn respect in his/her comments. Like we all do


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My HR was... (none / 0)

Oh, no, I read the thread perfectly fine. Obviously if you haven't been HR'ed before this and have made similar comments, then it needs to happen much more often. Your attacks and comments were petty and childish. Please stop trying to justify them.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pure partiality. (2.00 / 2)

I will post the thread here

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/7/31/9 4931/5618/219#219

so that you and others can see the origin of the thread. Catfish's comment about Obama not being a democrat. Psychodrew then intervened - completely out of the blue. Ninny is the mildest form of insult in UK english - like saying Duh

If my comments deserve hiderating, then Psychodrew's do - which of course they don't.

I frankly think she save as good as she got.
But your moralistic and, ultimately, undemocratic take on this is worrying. I've been warned: 'loyalty' also can translate into sorority bullying quite quickly


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:46:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What are you smoking? (none / 0)

This was your comment:

Two comments catfish. I'm not shell shocked. I'm just glad you and psychodrew have outed your true colors.

Of course I intervened, you used my name!

And look at my user ratings and point out where I HR'd or TR'd you!


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Too personal, PD... (2.00 / 2)

A lot of us are being too personal... And he meant zc HR'd him, not you.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:56:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Too personal, PD... (2.00 / 1)

He replied to my comment downthread bitching about HR'ing.  I just assumed he meant me.

This whole night has been silly.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:08:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed -- definitely silly. (2.00 / 2)

That's putting it nicely, though.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:12:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ninny means fool, simpleton..... (2.00 / 1)


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar y/ninny
by louisprandtl on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:07:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ninny means fool, simpleton..... (2.00 / 4)

Yes. The cognate would be 'silly'

It's over. It's the morning after. But let's be clear. I said

But I wasn't attacking Catfish you ninny/silly , I was attacking her arguments

Ninny is the mildest of epithets here, like nincompoop, or saying 'Duh' when someone says something stupid. If words like stupid, silly and ninny are now hiderateable, that's well - dare I say it - stupefying.

Besides, my beef wasn't with psychodrew here. She gave me as good as she got, and we can slug it out ourselves.

The bigger point and the gist of my comment was people are conflating attacking someone's arguments as an attack on their person. I think that's a very fine line.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:09:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Just for future reference, (2.00 / 2)

psychodrew is a guy. (I hate not knowing everyone's gender.)


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:14:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for that BUT... (2.00 / 3)

...have you slept at all?!! I

Being Sricki is like a UN Monitor in the Golan Heights methinks.

Kudos to you for all you've done tamping this down. Missed you in the original diaries though.

Sricki absent through move of apartment

War flares up

Causal methinks


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:17:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't sleep much, Brit. (2.00 / 3)

Especially recently. Surely I've told you that? Mind moves around too much and too quickly.

Personally, I'm so glad I missed the beginning of the flamewars... sick of this crap.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:26:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hah! (2.00 / 2)

And there's Kysen mojo'ing me! Figures he's awake.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:32:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (2.00 / 3)

Shhhhh....told tell anyone.
Especially my wife!!
;)
by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:33:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hah! (2.00 / 3)

er...
told = don't

I may be up...but, I told know how awake I actually am.  ;)


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:34:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh I'm wide awake. (2.00 / 3)

Hopped up on espressos.

If anything, I think your sleeping habits may be worse than mine!


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You guys are examples to us all (2.00 / 3)

When Obama talked in Berlin about being 'a citizen of the world' he was probably thinking of you and Kysen.

I mean, you seem to operate in both European and US timezones.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:41:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My HR was... (2.00 / 1)

I didn't say you were in grade school.  I said that I haven't been called a ninny since grade school.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:10:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My HR was... (2.00 / 3)

He is far from a purity troll, zc, and should not be treated as such. I'll vouch for that, and I believe CG would as well, were she asked.

Nor should you be treated poorly, but in the midst of a flamewar all those considerations get lost.

This has been a truly horrible night on MyDD, with good people attacking one another in a way they normally wouldn't, all over a relatively silly, inconsequential issue. I hope tomorrow is less unpleasant.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:35:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My HR was... (2.00 / 3)

"Nor should you be treated poorly"

Oh so now it's a economic thing with you huh, sricki?  Troll rated for poor bashing!

Seriously though, sorry you ended up being dumped smack in the middle of a shit sandwich.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 02:44:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, it's my fault. (2.00 / 3)

I could have avoided the shit sandwich by finishing my packing; instead I jumped right in like an idiot. 'Course we're all rolling around in it now.

And now I've effed up and gotten off schedule. Dammit. Why are flamewars so addictive?


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:02:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hey, it's my fault. (2.00 / 3)

Haha good luck with your move.  I feel your pain... when I was in college my roommates and I were moving every damn year.

If it makes you feel any better, right now I don't have to move and am sipping on an ice cold pale ale.

It might not, though.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:21:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not trolling you. (none / 0)

You launched an unnecessarily negative attack against one of my friends and I defended her.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you defend what she (none / 0)

wrote--intellectually or morally?


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you defend what she (none / 0)

Would you care to tell everyone here what you called her?  And why?

Until you explain/apologize for that sexist dribble, your words are meaningless.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:44:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Linfar? (2.00 / 1)

I called her a nutjob and a liar.

Just like I consider the people who claim that Hillary killed Vince Foster to be nutjobs and liars.


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:48:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Piss off! (none / 0)

You don't know what you're talking about.  My problem with duende started with a comment he made about catfish2.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My mistake. (none / 0)

I thought you were talking about another troll.


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:59:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not trolling you. (2.00 / 4)

This is where it gets silly. I don't know who catfish is, but she/he has said that Obama isn't a democrat and wants to vote McCain

Attacking these comments, on a democratic progressive blog, is completely legitimate, and doesn't deserve hiderating

You argued back. Did I hiderate you?

No

Your need to censor me shows the abject weakness of your position


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't hiderate you. (2.00 / 1)

I disagreed with you, and defended my friend.  


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Biracial Reagan (none / 0)

Apologies. I know that was Zcflint. I should have said 'the need to censor' rather than 'your need to censor'.

But it's over now. And I still think that if Catfish posts inflammatory remarks about Obama being a biracial Reagan, she the comment should be attacked, analysed, question.

By defending her comment, you seemed to be allying yourself to the Biracial Reagan meme. In that way, I lumped you together.

If you disagree with her comment, you should make that clear.

If you agree with her comment, then I take nothing back


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:22:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not trolling you. (2.00 / 2)

Catfish said Obama was a biracial candidate who isn't a real democrat.

I attacked that statement.

Let's be clear about that.

Catfish is a handle on the internet. The person behind that writes on a progressive blog she will vote for McCain.

To attack that statement is not to attack your friend psychodrew, and you should know better than to pretend it does.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:50:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is getting silly. (2.00 / 1)

Two comments catfish. I'm not shell shocked. I'm just glad you and psychodrew have outed your true colors.

SNIP

I always suspected you were a waste of time. Now I know it.

It sounds to me like you attacked the poster--and myself.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is getting silly. (2.00 / 1)

Speaking as a grammar nut, I'm not so sure.  It was awkwardly worded, but I'm pretty sure the tail end of that is directed at Catfish.

I could be wrong, but that's the way it reads to me.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:06:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is getting silly. (none / 0)

I'm just glad you and psychodrew have outed your true colors.

I don't think this was meant as a compliment.


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:15:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The morning after (2.00 / 1)

I'm willing to retract that comment if you are disowning what catfish said.

Which one is the Democrat? (0.00 / 1)

I can't find the Democrat in this race. I see a biracial man courting faith-based voters saying Blackwater is getting a bad rap who loves Ronald Reagan

If you support that comment, which you seemed to do by supporting catfish, then I have nothing to take back and stand by what I said.

And I felt no need to censor catfish. I didn't hiderate her. But I will disagree with something disagreeable to me


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:27:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is getting mighty silly (2.00 / 2)

Check the diary. The thread I was hiderated on was different.

Selective snipping too. You both took exception a standalone reasoned comment I made about Linfar's diary (content). Catfish is consistently claiming to vote for McCain. Defend her all you want. I'm complaining about the hiderating. I have no problem with arguing with you. I only have an issue with an outside party selective hiderating one side of the argument


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:19:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It got silly hours ago. (2.00 / 1)

You said something about mine and catfish's true colors.  I doubt that was a compliment, and my response didn't warrant name-calling.

Whatever.  I'm out for the night.  This stupidity has distracted me from Big Brother and tonight is an endurance challenge.

Oh, the humanity!


Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:26:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It got silly hours ago. (2.00 / 1)

This stupidity...

Are you calling me a ninny?

/snark


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:38:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I was inclined to ask you guys (2.00 / 3)

to back off each other too, but it isn't my business. I did tell the others how unfortunate it was that you and psychodrew were fighting, and I hoped perhaps it would stop.

Tempers are inflamed. Some of the loyalty comes from the knowledge among the group that we know exactly where everyone's allegiances lie and understand where everyone is coming from. We have a better understanding, so if people leap to each others' defense, it shouldn't be a surprise. I didn't like what you and PD were saying to each other in that thread, but I wouldn't have downrated anyone for it.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

HIderating is the issue, srick (2.00 / 3)


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:37:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: viva la democracy! (2.00 / 3)

As far as I read--though it was pretty hard to keep track since there were so many comments in so many diaries--nobody was blaming C4O for anything Linfar wrote.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bullshit... (2.00 / 3)

and we both know that.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit... (2.00 / 1)

Okay, it's time for you to show some examples.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:33:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit... (2.00 / 4)

The only one who attacked the C40's and has done so recently in previous diaries is blueneponset.  But he's not to be taken seriously, and all of us know it.  Other than that the only person who even mentioned your group was spaceman, and he did so respectfully in a personal exchange with Sricki.

I don't think the lot of us deserve the ire that was brought on by one poster who enjoys creating issues such as this.  He's essentially harmless.


by Tenafly Viper on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:24:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit... (2.00 / 2)

Amen.

Lots of lurkers don't know what C4O is or stands for. The fact that Blue Neponset gets mojo'd like crazy, and the fact that he writes so many damn posts makes it easy for a guy to think others are agreeing with him and the way he smears said group.

While it's obvious to all that read the thread that Blue was out of line NOBODY CALLED HIM OUT ON IT. So, that makes me think alot of people who mojo'd his other comments might agree with his current one.

In hindsight, I should of not said a thing.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit... (2.00 / 4)

Ummmm...I called him out on it.
More than once.
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/7/31/9 4931/5618/153#153

And, credit where credit is due, he actually seemed to listen towards the end:
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/7/31/9 4931/5618/166#166

He admittedly has 'issues' with C4O, but, at least he does admit it....and seems as though he will back off (at least for now).


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:07:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I know K! I was downthread with ya! (2.00 / 2)

But he got more mojo than call outs. Which leads to confusion.

I might have phrased it the wrong way. It "seemed" like nobody was calling him out. ; )


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:42:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know K! I was downthread with ya! (2.00 / 1)

Looking back, it's an appearance, not a trend. If you search "Nepo" through the thread, you can see 1.00/3, 1.00/3, 1.50/4, .66/12 and so on and so forth. The only reliable mojoer was Glaurung. On the other hand, Nepo was called out by both Kysen and myself.

The only two 2.00 posts of his in that thread were both apologetic.

So, beware appearances. Your eyes lie to you sometimes, especially in heated debates.


by TCQuad on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:58:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bullshit... (none / 0)

I see my hiderating still stands for the word 'ninny' while you cry bullshit here and fail to post any evidence that people en masse were impugning C4O.

I take your hiderating as a selective abuse of the system. You failed to hiderate psychodrew calling me a drama queen. Fortunately others have reversed the hiderating and it can now be seen. But I hope with a night's sleep you'll see fit to change your stance.

There's a substantive issue worthy of discussion here. This is in microcosm what has happened in the last few days. Any attack on someone's ideas - like mine on Catfish - is quickly construed as a personal attack. It's identity politics gone mad, and we go down this direction, then nothing can be said, no ideas can be exchanged, revised, analysed.

So in the spirit of free speech I'd asked you to step back. Disagree with me all you like. Call me silly. Call me a ninny. Troll me.  

But there's a quiet violence in silence


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 08:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nicely said, CG! (2.00 / 4)

First off, thanks for the kind words for me & Drew. I don't deserve it (blushing). And secondly, I love this diary! C4O is all about supporting Democrats, so I'm not liking these smears on ALL OF US.

If you don't agree with what Linfar wrote, so be it. Personally, I don't think there's anything to these crazy Wailing Wall rumors. But still, let's not personally attack those we disagree with.

That's just not cool... But you are, CG. ;-)


Help Clintonistas for Obama help Democrats win! :-)
by atdleft on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have nothing but the utmost respect (2.00 / 4)

for you.

However, this is not about agreement and disagreement.

This is about truth, lies, and rightwing Swiftboating.

Linfar's sources were:

A racist rightwing publication and two merely rightwing Neocon publications.

When someone pushes rightwing LIES, there is no obligation to respect the lies.


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thank you, Geek... (2.00 / 6)

I've REALLY appreciated your support & the support of so many other Obama folks here since the primary season ended. I do think you're a solid contributor here at MyDD. It's just that while I strongly disagree with linfar on the Wailing Wall prayer rumors, I'd rather not attack her personally over it.

You see, linfar was brutally attacked by "PUMAs" when she announced her support of Obama... Just like all the rest of us at C4O. She hasn't had it easy, and now she must feel like she's being attacked by all sides. We can express our disagreement with linfar without bashing her as some GOP troll.

I know you're a good person, Geek, so please understand what I'm trying to say.


Help Clintonistas for Obama help Democrats win! :-)
by atdleft on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:41:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand, but I think y'all (2.00 / 2)

should have an intervention with her or something.

At this point she's just coming off as someone who's just spoiling for a fight.  

More to the point, it is possible for a person to cross a line after which their very presence becomes provocative.

If she burns her bridges going in both directions, she becomes an island.


by Geekesque on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Email me off-list... (2.00 / 2)


Help Clintonistas for Obama help Democrats win! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:09:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Email me off-list... (2.00 / 2)

atdleftATyahooDOTcom. If you'd like specifics on what we have planned at C4O, I can discuss with you privately.


Help Clintonistas for Obama help Democrats win! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you, Geek... (2.00 / 3)

One of the problems with your assessment, atdleft, is that linfar seems to perceive any disagreement her as an attack. She accused me of attacking her just like the PUMAz...which, frankly, was one the many times I had to chuckle throughout this whole mess.

I am of the opinion that linfar enjoys playing the victim, seeing how she seems to use any excuse to do so. She is also incapable of admitting any culpability in all of this.

Yes, some did attack her on a personal level...however, MOST did not. Yet, all who disagreed with her were painted with the broad brush.

Lastly, ya'll read my comments.
I've been here a while.
I'd like to think that perhaps my take on this issue might be given some weight since I really do try to be fair and even-handed here on MYDD.


by Kysen on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 11:51:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please understand, Kysen... (2.00 / 3)

Linfar's under pressure right now. Maybe if everyone turns down the heat, everyone can discuss the matter rationally. Otherwise, all the shouting at each other isn't accomplishing anything.

I know you mean well, Kysen. You've actually been a consistent friend to most of us at C4O. I appreciate it. I just don't understand the personal hits on linfar, and how some here are now directing that anger at all the rest of us at C4O when we don't even believe the silly "Obama leaked his own prayers at the Wailing Wall!" nonsense. I'm just tired of all the drama on both extremes, and I'd like for us to stop fighting each other & get back to fighting the GOP.


Help Clintonistas for Obama help Democrats win! :-)
by atdleft on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:27:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please understand, Kysen... (2.00 / 3)

Almost nobody blames the rest of you.  I certainly don't.  

I'd be curious to know what happens, frankly.

Be well.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:31:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please understand, Kysen... (2.00 / 3)

Honestly, this will be last on it for the evening..but...

No one who has ANY credibility on MYDD is connecting linfar's nonsense to the rest of you at C40. Seriously, we are talking 2, maybe 3 at most...and they are the 2 or 3 people who pretty much blame C4O's for one thing or the other day in and day out. Allowing their nonsense to detract from the issue at hand (which has NOTHING TO DO with C4O) only gives power to the 2(3?) maroons that were claiming a connection in the first place.

In a weird kind of way this diary is doing what this diary is complaining about. It's doppleganger would be an entire diary taking C4O to task for linfar's shenanigans of late.

Just as linfar does not equal C4O, a few comments from a couple known anti-C4O'ers does not equal the views of the VAST majority of the rest of us involved in this hot mess since yesterday.

In a way, this diary is kinda out in left field as far as the issue that spurred it. (no offense intended CG)

I don't know if that made sense...but, I am too tired to clean up the language in it. If it did not make sense, and you really want to know what I am trying to say...email me.

My brain hurts.
Peace, brother.


by Kysen on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 12:50:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

let me make my intentions clear... (none / 0)

both to you and to spacey.

in reaper's other diary - c4o was mentioned several times - by people sricki, psychodrew, atdleft, denny crane z, and kevin and myself really respect.  some of us have worked extremely hard to develop our credibility here and want to ensure that people here both see us as individuals and debate people on the merits of their words.  your criticism of linfar are fair - others not so much with the name-calling and childish behaviour.

if you dont know what i mean - check out are buddy brandon's comment and you get the tone of the majority of the 'criticism' in these diaries.


"Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
by canadian gal on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 01:05:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: let me make my intentions clear... (2.00 / 3)

Brandon does not, by ANY measure, represent what the majority of the criticism was.

It kinda feels as though you are using Brandon as a measure of those involved, while decrying the use of linfar as a measure of C4O. All while the real issue drifts further and further beneath the mountain of comments detracting from it.

Love ya, but I a